The futures broker short list
Posted by The Lonely Trader on July 12, 2009
Finally committing to futures. Not really a short list at all…but here they are in order of consideration:
Infinity – after reading about it on Jules’ blog
Velocity – heard very good things about execution and cost
TransAct – heard very good things about execution and cost
Mirus – haven’t really heard much, except they are solid
IB – lots and lots of stuff, but dodgey execution and service
TradeStation - pricey, but solid with a great platform
Criteria are (1) overall cost/range of products and services, (2) reliability, (3) execution, (4) customer service.
Anyone have any ideas? Recommendations? Concerns? I have had no experience with any except IB. I will mainly be swing and position trading, but want to leave my options for daytrading open as well. I like Ninja and X, but unless I’m trading lots of volume each day the platform is not as important as other factors. Near term, I don’t see taking more than a few daytrades in a week. Looking at ES, YM, ZB, DX, the currencies, crude, metals and ags.
I know I’ve asked before, this I mean it this time I swear. Would really appreciate your thoughts.
Alan said
I hear nothing but good things about Mirus.
andrewunknown said
Infinity’s great: I used them back in the day (2003-2005), so I can’t vouch for them now, but their market share and exposure has only increased since then. Fast, reliable execution, great support. My only gripe is that I was not a fan of the Infinity AT layout; but that’s more aesthetic than anything else.
The other broker I’d suggest looking at, not to extend the list even further, is Amp Futures. It’s been a few years since using them as well, but they came highly recommended by a trustworthy veteran futures trader (Ryan Watts) when I was first starting out, and I know he still uses them exclusively. Low margins, RTs are on the products you want to trade are rock-bottom, and execution is on par with Infinity. Customer service is also excellent here.
Input’s a little out-dated, but there you have it. Your notes on IB and Tradestation are a good summation; no experience with the remaining three.
The Lonely Trader said
A, checked out AMP. Will run a fee comparison between AMP and my other top three for oil, gold and the ags. That will pretty much decide it I think…my top so far is Velocity.
Speculator Ed said
AMP with TT feed is cheaper in commission, but I think the TT feed is from their server and data is filtered. I signed up for the demo, but having trouble connecting to the feed, I think because they use certain ports and the router is blocking it, but I’ll check on it when I have time.
Mirus with ZenFire seems good, love the unfiltered data of zenfire, and I’ve heard good things about its execution as well.
I have nothing but love for ninjatrader as it is so easy to write c# indicators. The support forum is amazing too. When I go live, I’ll fork over $1k for the lifetime ninja license.
Only bad thing about these introducing brokers are that they don’t have e-check ACH money transfer…. how old school.
Infinity Anthony said
Hi Lonely,
Thanks for the nice post about Infinity from Jules page. Please feel free to contact me about anything or to take a look at the demo: http://www.infinityfutures.com/IATdemosignup.aspx?ref=agia
Best regards,
Anthony Giacomin
a.giacomin@infinityfutures.com
(312) 373-6226
(888) 716-3587
Yahoo IM: infinityanthony
LP said
Use IB and have never had an execution problem. Cust service blows. But then again I’ve always used limit orders. However, the tool absolutely suck for options. I have yet to find someone better than TOS for options. Unfortunately you need to have an options account when trading Futs and Equities, especially when you want to hedge your long term positions, or you will have to pay the 23% (for Futs) vs 15% tax rates.
Mirus seems to be a preferred broker for many futs trader. Heard very good things.
I’m always stuck with IB because of the Neoticker free slooooow data. I don’t believe in paying $150 a month for esignal when I’m only tracking a few symbols. That in itself is a huge tax. If you have a 100K account and make a decent 10% return ($10K) and esignal costs you 1800 a year. That’s 18% of your profits down the drain. However, if you make huge returns, this number shrinks quite a bit and then esignal is absoulety worth it. Fast, clean and reliable.
Lord Tedders said
I’ve only used TradeStation from you list. Wasn’t that impressed. The best thing about them is their platform. Their brokerage is O.K. but nothing fab.
Have you looked at MBTrading? I used them and liked them quite a bit when I was trading futures. Don’t know if their prices stack up as well as some of the others mentioned here, but the service was great.
LT
LP said
Agree with the Lord. I’ve heard some good things about MB as well. Fully integrates with Neoticker. However, their data while faster may not be as robust.
The Lonely Trader said
I’ve kinda given up on NeoTicker, but I also heard that it integrates with NinjaTrader. Several of the brokers above interface with Ninja. Wondering if that would allow me to use NeoTicker for automated testing.
Have heard mixed stuff about MB. Currently checking out AMP.
LP said
Unfortunately only IB and MB integrate with Neo…of that list…me thinks…
but you could code and test with Ninja…
MikeH said
Velocity/X_Trader: Responsive desk, replied to emails in a few minutes, with the solution or already fixed. X_Trader (XT) is snappy, and when market is moving you will see some data, like bid/offers, that get missed by Ninja (NT). You can export data to excel and back, but not natively programmable like NT. If you pay monthly fee, you can get access to api and do whatever you need to, but this is expensive and really targeted at institutions. Handled all orders, and a free add in that Velocity made available could automatically add Stop/Target OCO order after initial order filled. In two years, only dropped a connection once, and that was to the price feed (could still access orders). No strategies or backtesting, that’s really not the market for TT, but there is a basic charting component and Velocity keeps a few weeks of data. At the free XT level, currency futures where about a $1 more per round turn, but then you’re not paying any ongoing fees either. No problems with statements or balances, sent emails when funds transfered in and out, but they only do wire transfers (WTF do these still cost $20? from my bank).
Mirus/NinjaTrader: Again, a responsive back office and no statement issues – I used Dorman clearing. If you can program or find someone to do it for you, and this is your type of trading, then you can probably do it in NT or have Tradestation send it to NT. I think the feed was good, but when busy I’m guessing that it was NT that would just lag enough to not visibly show some data points. In general, the user interface is not as snappy as XT. It’s kind of the feeling of using Word vs. Notepad to write a simple text file. But if you’re trading by hand, there won’t be any difference. I haven’t used the back testing or strategy features, but I do like the simulation and replay modes. They charged me $5.75 a round turn on currency futures, and you also pay a license fee to NT.
I’ve been looking at going back to futures as well since I’ve gone back to day trades for the most part. And while I’m making money at Oanda, generally holding trades in the range of 15-60 minutes, the spread still works against you. At a minimum 10 pip target, you know for sure you’ll give up about 10% to the dealer, while you may get filled at wholesale in the futures (buy the bid or sell on the offer). I find those pippettes really frustrading.
For my purposes, I only need basic charting and order handling. I just need automated entry of a stop and target when I get filled, and I’ll manage it by hand from there. Also, the price feed should be free for the products you’re trading. I vaguely remember reading somewhere that with the CME, if the connection is an order entry application, there is no fee for the price feed. I don’t trade everyday for various reasons, so I don’t want a fixed cost. Maybe I’m just cheap.
The Lonely Trader said
Mike, thanks for that detailed info. Very helpful. I look at X_Trader as well and I really like the DOM and the rest of the interface. Between you and DayTrader123 I have just enough to make an informed decision on the finer points.
I’ve been manually testing a strategy on ZB, CL and 6E for about a month now. I really do need a charting function for this and a snappy feed. Hoping NT will do the trick as I need to have someone program a couple of indicators for me. I like that I can choose a dynamic or a static DOM as well.
And like you, I am also cheap.
Cheers
Alan said
Mike, I totally agree with you about Oanda. Even when price approaches a take profit order the spread moves against the order, as can be seen by looking at the smallest time frame charts there and using the high/low settings ( I am sure you know this but maybe some dont)
As well as Oanda I currently use IG Markets, and Go Markets (Australia based), (all for spot FX & CFDs not futures).
Just wanted to say that I read your blog for the first time just now and loved the comment comparing FX advertisers to Golf, very good.
Jay, another good thread here mate, very interesting and informative, tres bien mon amie. (;-)
The Lonely Trader said
@Alan and Mike: I have seen that with Oanda as well, but it really didn’t affect my trading as much as the execution problems I had at almost every other broker I’ve traded with in the last eight years. I really do think that despite their quirks, they are the best retail outfit currently…for me.
I’m surprised Alan that you didn’t find Mike’s blog sooner. Good stuff, when he decides to update it…. ;)
MikeH said
I will add the comment that to this point, I haven’t had a problem with Oanda’s executions either. I’ve read a few disgruntled comments on their forums about suddenly widened spreads hitting stops, and these prices didn’t show up on other price feeds. And that’s the kicker, it is their price feed. Since I stay away from the 8:30 EST release time, I avoid when they widen the spread to 10 pips on EUR/USD. The futures spread is about as wide do to lack of liquidity, but you can break it. Not for the faint hearted.
clayJ said
I know viet era F-4 pilot,golfer,has traded professionally for 10 years,uses infinity and is happy with them.
I know an english trader,traded professionally 6 years and ,now uses mirus,very active trader. Uses an internet phone to chat with broker.
I know a former TS user who got little help techically from TS.When something was not working he got little from them.
I have a mirus acct.I have a good relation with the broker and one on the technical side.
The Mad Scalper said
You could take a look at advantage futures. Then have Ninja TT feed. I have had good experience with their customer service, although I do not trade with them, I may in the future..
Alan said
For Mike – I agree with you re Oanda – as long as the trader is aware of how they work then its fine to trade with them, they in fact could be seen as being more transparent about the real market spreads than most brokers/market makers.
This might be of interest – something I was sent today – Oanda lost money in May, meaning clients won overall – http://forexmagnates.com/most-us-forex-brokers-gained-in-may-gft-leads-the-losers/